“Crebain! From Dunland!”
Just kidding, it’s actually ravens, but they’re a lot more frightening than Saruman’s spies were in The Fellowship of The Ring. Ravens have a long history in mythology and fiction and are usually depicted as evil or bad omens, due to their appearance and the fact that they are carrion eaters. But I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a story that contained quite such a vicious number of them. Not even in The Birds. (There were ravens in The Birds, right?)
And possibly even worse even than giant clouds of evil ravens who will tear you to pieces on sight, we also have a return this week of the Children of the Light and their creepy way of doing the devil’s work in the name of God. This week we are covering Chapter 29 and 30, and I have a lot to say about the Whitecloaks, so batten down the hatches folks.
Chapter 29 opens with Elyas setting a grueling pace as he leads Perrin and Egwene towards Caemlyn. In addition to pushing them, Elyas is very concerned that they leave no trace of their passing, be it evidence of their campsite or even a branch being broken as the travelers pass. Neither Egwene nor Perrin have any idea what it is that Elyas is worried might see signs of them, although Perrin knows through the wolves that it isn’t Trollocs. The wolves know that there aren’t any Trollocs nearby; but they do not know what it is Elyas is so concerned about, and his behavior is a bit baffling to Egwene and Perrin, especially when the land becomes hillier and Elyas insists on going around every rise and ridge, even though it costs them time and effort.
The soon learn, however, what it is that Elyas fears will spot them. Forced to cross a ridge that is too long for them to go around, Elyas allows Perrin to scout ahead with him before they cross. Perrin is nearly convinced that all this caution is for nothing, knowing that the wolves have already scouted ahead and found nothing dangerous, when a huge flock of birds bursts from the trees below the ridge. A hunt, Elyas calls it, and decides that they must hurry to find a safe place he knows of, but as they are hurrying onward, they witness a fox chased down by a group of ravens and brutally pecked to death. As they rush onward, hoping not to be seen, a single raven flies out of a tree, spotting them and taking off, no doubt to tell its companions. Perrin know he has to take it down before it can get away, but it is Egwene’s sling that knocks the bird from the sky.
They run onwards, always pausing to make sure the flock of ravens stays ahead of them, but Perrin becomes aware that the wolves, circling behind them, have encountered a group of ravens. They fight the birds off, warning Elyas and Perrin of the danger that comes from behind as well as flies before them. Aware that Elyas is waiting for Perrin to admit what he knows, Perrin gasps out that there are ravens behind them, confirming the truth of his ability to understand them for Egwene.
Running in earnest, desperate and tired beyond what he thinks they can endure, Perrin becomes aware of how long it will be until the ravens behind catch them up, and he feels increasing despair that they cannot outrun the creatures to the safe place Elyas says he knows. Knowing that the ravens will catch up to them in about an hour, before the sun sets, Perrin wrestles with the question of whether or not to tell Egwene that there is no hope. He decides to allow her the mercy of ignorance, but also decides that, if he must, he will kill Egwene with his own axe rather than let her die a horrible, agonizing death under hundreds of raven beaks. But just then something changes, he feels a shock like cold run through him and it both takes his breath and refreshes him somehow. Egwene senses something too, saying that she feels like she has lost something. Elyas is just amused, however, laughing at their confusion and telling them that they are safe. They are in a stedding.
Making camp, Egwene and Perrin notice a strange stone that turns out to be part of a statue. Elyas tells them the story of Artur Hawkwing, the High King, and how he united the lands into a single kingdom. He tells them that the statue was erected by Artur Hawkwing’s adoring citizens, with the intention of building a city around it, but Artur Hawkwing died and his children fought for the right to follow him and the united lands fell apart again. Now only the statue remains, for Perrin, Egwene, and Elyas to rest uneasily beside. But it is not Artur Hawkwing’s eye that they fear.
Perrin, also, is struggling with a different kind of fear. He goes to sit a little ways away from the others, to sit and contemplate the horrible truth that he had been close to striking Egwene down with his own axe. Feeling guilty and horrified, he’s prepared to cast the weapon away, but Elyas comes to talk to him. He asks Perrin if he hates Egwene, suggests that Perrin wanted to kill her because she was slowing them down, to which Perrin responds incredulously. Elyas tells Perrin that he is certain Egwene would have preferred the merciful death to the brutal one by the ravens, even as Elyas himself would have. Perrin is convinced that he will never be able to use the axe, but Elyas is sure that he will. He tells Perrin to keep the axe as long as he doesn’t like it or want to use it, and that the time to cast it away will be if those facts are no longer true.
Before the conversation can go any further, Elyas and Perrin are struck with a powerful sending from the wolves, and they both race back to Egwene, hurrying to put out their fire and scatter their campsite. Elyas tells Egwene and Perrin to run and hide, as Egwene demands to know what they are running from.
In the falling dark, Perrin finds a rocky slab to hide them under, rock that turns out to be a hand from the Hawkwing statue. Despite the fact that Perrin seems to be able to see unusually well in the dark, they decide it will be too difficult to try to run in the dark from the men on horseback who the wolves say smells “wrong, the way a rabid dog smells wrong.”
Perrin admits to Egwene that the men saw one of the wolves, Wind, and that they are hunting them with torches. Many of the wolves are already hurt by the ravens, and as he hides with Egwene Perrin’s mind is with the wolves as they try to fight off the men, snatching them from saddles, hamstringing their horses, trying not to defeat them so much as to make the fight not worth their while. But instead of retreating to the safety of a firelit camp, the men continue to hunt them. And then they discover Perrin and Egwene’s hiding place.
Perrin is horrified when he recognizes them as Whitecloaks. Calling up to the sheltering hand, the men demand that if there is anyone there who understands human speech, they should give themselves up. Perrin struggles with the decision, considering running, considering surrender, knowing that Elyas and the wolves are still out there in the dark and could come for them. Egwene suggests surrender, certain that if they run they will be killed. Reluctantly, the two leave the hand and walk down towards the Whitecloaks, and Perrin has just about convinced himself to drop his weapon as ordered when Hopper, coming to the defense of his human brother, attacks. He calls to Perrin to run and kills one of the Whitecloaks before the spears of the others can take him out. Perrin attacks as well, and as pain floods through him, he isn’t certain which of them is dying.
Perrin awakes in a tent beside Egwene, both bound and being carefully watched by an enigmatic older man with an air of authority about him. He has collected all their possessions. When another man comes to report, Perrin and Egwene learn that he is the Lord Captain of this group of Whitecloaks. The man, whom the Captain addresses as Child Byar, estimates that his company had been attacked by “fifty [wolves] or more” and besides Egwene and Perrin, “at least a dozen other men,” who were alerted to the Children of the Light’s presence by, he suspects, spies within their ranks. But the Captain is merely amused. Lord Captain Bornhald however, chides him gently, suggesting that Byar is young and inexperienced such matters, estimating the wolves’ number more correctly and suggesting that the travelers were at the stedding for the water, even as the Children of the Light were.
It is clear to Perrin that Byar holds a deep hatred for him and Egwene, although Perrin cannot quite figure out why. The two Whitecloaks begin to question them, and although Perrin and Egwene protest that they are not Darkfriends and do not deserve such ill treatment, they find Bornhald difficult to convince and Byar quick to hurt them if they do not speak politely or if they are suspected of lying. At first, Perrin and Egwene give too much of themselves away, as Perrin tries to convince the men that wolves are not creatures of the Dark One, and Egwene accidentally gives away too much knowledge of how Trollocs look. Perrin’s coin, too, is suspicious to Borhals, who recognizes it as a mark of Tar Valon. Eventually Perrin manages to offer a story close enough to the truth, passing of their knowledge as gleaned accidentally through chance encounters and misadventures on their travels from the Two Rivers. Although not enough to get them released, the story seems plausible enough that Bornhald has them untied, and all but their weapons returned to them. He suggests that they need a better story, though, and states his belief that Egwene and Perrin might be lead away from the Shadow and brought back to the light. Or Egwene, at least. For Perrin, who killed two of the Children of the Light in his rage over Hopper’s death, he says there can only be one fate; a gibbet.
* * *
Dear readers, oh my gentle friends, I have died a little inside this week. Reading the end of Chapter 30 was like having cavity drilled in my soul. After the dynamic excitement and vivid horror of the raven chase, Bornhald and Byar’s brutal good-cop, bad cop routine really set me back on my heels.
I was a sensitive child growing up, and a lot of scary movies and even literature were a challenge. But I loved fantasy and science fiction, and my tolerance for fantasy violence was much higher than in other aspects of fiction. My mother asked me about it once, and my explanation was simple: it’s not real. There is a certain disconnect from reality that comes with shooting someone with a blaster rather than a gun, or torturing someone with lightning that shoots out of your fingers as you cackle maniacally rather than the way it is actually done to war prisoners. So maybe this disconnect is also why, as perfectly brutal and terrifying as it was when the group of ravens pecked that fox to death, I actually enjoyed the scare. The portrayal of (as I’ve put it before) Evil-with-a-capital-E hits home in a beautiful way, reminding the reader, and Perrin, of what, exactly, the Dark One is; destruction, deformation, chaos, pain, and death. The opposite of creation, I suppose, which is the point of any Devil-figure.
All our traditional supernatural boogeymen—vampires, zombies, ghosts, and other monsters—represent something besides the literal. They are stand-ins for metaphorical fears, and I think the Fades and Trollocs are as well. The are real physical threats to the heroes, but they are also a representation of what the corruption of Ba’alzamon does to people and the other beings of Creation. The rat dream may be horrible to read about, but the reader doesn’t expect to literally encounter such a situation in their real lives. But zealots? Those we very well may. There are few things more frightening than someone who will do something that you see as horribly evil, but they believe to be moral and true. That disconnect in the Children of the Light is far more frightening to me than a shadow man whose cloak doesn’t move in the wind. (Not to say I want to meet a Fade on my way home from work tomorrow, or anything. I’m just fairly certain that I won’t.)
You know what else is chilling? Perrin’s difficult decision about how to spare Egwene, as much as he could, from what appeared to be certain death at the beaks of the ravens. Although made in a rush under circumstances that made it difficult to think anything carefully through, Perrin has to ask himself whether it is kinder, whether it is more moral, to tell Egwene the despairing truth or let her live in hope, even if it is a false hope. His decision that he will kill her himself rather than let her suffer is made with even less time for thought, almost instinctively, and it is interesting he can only consider the meaning of that choice later, when they are safe and there is room for it.
It isn’t surprising that Perrin should feel horrified at the fact that he was ready to kill Egwene. I think, as Elyas does, that his decision was the right one, but you’re never going to feel good about considering killing one of your closest friends, even if it was the right choice, and Perrin is not quite capable of working through the understandably complex feelings he is experiencing. Elyas’s reverse psychology helps a little, but the questions Perrin is grappling with are not just of whether his motives were good. He is, I think, also struggling with the burden of responsibility that comes with being a warrior. His worry over becoming the sort of person who enjoys killing is understandable and wise, but I think he doesn’t consider that he may also be afraid of what he could be asked to do in the future. Carrying that axe doesn’t just mean striking down Evil and feeling righteous and strong about it. It also means making a decision that may be no better than the lesser of two evils. It also means paying a price for your actions, and perhaps now Perrin may start to understand a little bit of what Seeker Raen meant when he said that violence “harms the one who does it as much as the one who receives it.” If they had been attacked by the ravens, Perrin wouldn’t have had to live very long with the pain of having killed his friend, but even killing as an act of mercy would leave a scar on his soul, so to speak. It’s clear that Perrin has a protector’s instincts, which I think showed in his debate with Raen about the Way of the Leaf back in Chapter 25, and this is something that the Tinker’s pacifist way of life does not address, at least as far as we have heard of it so far. Raen says that if a man wanted to hit him, he would ask why, and if the man still wanted to harm him, rob him, or kill him, he would run away. But what if Raen saw that man attack someone else? Would he intervene? What intervention would be appropriate? Talking but not physical restraint? Physical restraint but only if it guaranteed that he wouldn’t harm the aggressor in any way? The line quickly becomes a lot more blurry than one might like. Raen is not a leaf, after all, he is a human person. And a human’s life is a lot more complicated than a plant’s.
But whatever Raen might have chosen in that hypothetical, this is a question that Perrin himself is going to have to grapple with moving forward. Almost immediately, in fact, and since his connection with the wolves has already grown quite a bit, it ends up being more instinctual than anything else. When Hopper attacks the Whitecloaks, Perrin reacts without thinking. He reacts to their aggression, to the killing of Hopper, but also I think to everything that has come before—the persistent hunting of the wolves, the awareness of the danger the Children pose to him and Egwene, even the way that he is beginning to smell the “wrongness” in them as the wolves do. When the time comes, Perrin reacts not as a leaf, but as a wolf.
And he does not seem to regret that choice; if anything he’s ready to back it up by attacking Byar in the tent. Perrin recognizes instantly that this man is an enemy, noting that “a cruel light burned in his sunken eyes, as surely as flames burned in Ba’alzamon’s.”
Here again we have this question of what it truly means to fight your enemy. Perrin and Egwene are inexperienced enough that they don’t seem to realize quite how skillfully they are being played by Captain Bornhald. Even the descriptions of him are deceptive; “a kindly grandfather who knew his grand-children had been up to some mischief,” for example. At one point, when Bornhald stands up for Egwene and Perrin in the face of Byar’s demands for their death, Perrin “almost [feels] affection for the grandfatherly man who stood between them and Byar.” But he doesn’t seem aware of how skillfully he and Egwene are manipulated into talking by Bornhald’s deceptively gentle questioning and apparent logic, and the way it is made to look even more inviting and reasonable in comparison to Byar’s angry violence. And nothing is perhaps more classic good-cop/bad cop than Byar’s threats of violence coupled with Bornhnald’s gentle plea for Egwene and Perrin to be polite “for Child Byar’s sake.” Perrin rightly recognizes, at least, that Bornhald could stop Byar from hurting them, but chooses not to.
It does not seem that Perrin or Egwene recognize Bornhald from Baerlon; they didn’t get up close and personal with him the way Rand and Mat did, but we the readers remember the name, and there was nothing “grandfatherly” about the way the man acted then. That was just jerk cop, really. But I’m not fooled by this grandpa stuff.
There is also something deeply unsettling about the infantilization of Byar’s honorific as “Child,” too. I don’t know if it’s used for all members of the Children of the Light save those of high rank or if it’s some kind of title used for those who are initiates or new recruits, but it makes me think of how many adults don’t consider children to be full people with the ability to figure out right and wrong for themselves, but as vessels of bad instincts that must be told what to do and how to do it, or else they’re guaranteed to grow up into bad people. This kind of bad-faith assumption fits right in with everything else we have seen of the Children of the Light thus far; Bornhald and Byar have already made their decision about Perrin and Egwene and the interrogation is only to gain information that supports their conclusions. They tend to look at everything as being evil and dark until it can be proved otherwise, which is probably part of the reason they tend to assume that anyone who argues with them, obstructs them in any way, or disagrees with any of their methods is a Darkfriend. I mean, Bornhald basically claimed that all of Baerlon was allied with the Shadow because someone knocked some barrels at him. Okay, probably also because of all the obstruction the Whitecloaks were facing from the town and its Governor, but that just speaks to the rest of the evil of the Children; power-lust.
In any case, it is weird to hear Byar being called “Child” when he is a grown man. Even if he doesn’t particularly act like one. The obedience that is clearly demanded of members of their order speaks to a level of discipline that could border on brainwashing, or at least subjugation. I am thinking suddenly of the Trollocs collapsing and tearing themselves apart when Lan beheaded the Myrddraal back in Chapter 18, and the other examples of the way the Trollocs seem to be controlled or directed by the Myrddraal by some kind of mental control or will. The question of free will in The Wheel of Time is one I have talked about before (in Week 4, to be precise) but that was more in the context of fate and the way it plays out in this universe’s world building. Now I am interested to see how the moral question of individual choice verses establishment control plays into the themes of the story and the contrast between Dark and Light. Of course, the question of free will is one that dominates most of Western fiction, and in modern times free will is generally regarded as being incredibly important to the side of Good, while the forces of Evil can often be recognized by either willing submission to, or the forced control of, the head Bad Guy. So far, The Eye of the World seems to be tending towards a similar theme; even the terror of the ravens is enhanced by the way they seem to move as if they have one mind.
I am guessing that the fight between individual and establishment is going to get really interesting when we get to Tar Valon and have to contend with the full order of the Aes Sedai. In the meantime, there’s always the comments section. See you down below!
(Next week I will be covering Chapters 31-33!)
Sylas K Barrett loves wolves very much, and that is just one more reason to HIGHLY DISLIKE the Whitecloaks. RIP Hopper, the wolf with the cutest backstory.
Hopper! Sniff…
This is where the “real” world intrudes a bit for me. I’ve read a lot of trail journals from long distance hikers. One of their complaints about the Appalachian Trail is that it goes straight over hill and ridges rather than minimizing the elevation changes. They refer to PUDs – Pointless Up and Downs. The two long distance trails in the western United States tend to go around obstacles rather than just going up and down. The trails are longer, but flatter. (If a trail on the Continental Divide can be considered flat.)
So it seems to me that Elyas’ insistence on going around may not be just to avoid being seen, but also because it actually doesn’t cost them time and effort. But Elyas lived far more in the woods than our heroes, so this could be another unreliable narrator moment.
I enjoyed your commentary and your discussion of the interrogation and they way in which it was largely staged was very well-described. I am curious as to whether it would affect your view of the character of Bornhald to know that the Bornhald in Baerlon is actually his son, rather than him.
@peter (#3) Oh wow, I did not figure that out! Is it clear in the text and I just missed it?
Bornhald in Baerlon (That sounds like a rom-com or something, doesn’t it?) is such an arrogant hothead, so it does change my perspective on Bornhald Sr. a bit because I was ascribing some of that recklessness and loudness to him. However I think Bornhald Sr. comes off just as arrogantly in his scene, but more self-possessed and wise about it. He doesn’t need to flaunt his status, he is secure in it, unlike Byar, and perhaps Bornhald Jr. as well.
The way the Children are addressed as Child so and so always reminded me of religious cults like David Berg’s Children of God. Cult as a substitute for family.
This section will always stand out to me for the death of Hopper. I HATED that scene at first reading. Strange how death of animals is often more traumatic than the death of human characters.
@fcoulter (#2) Going up and down rather than around is definitely a lot more effort on a trail, and if you’re going for long distance you definitely want to conserve energy whenever you can. I think part of the problem for Elyas, Perrin, and Egwene was not just the going around but the finding a way around, which could have been time consuming and difficult. I also wonder how high/difficult the ridges are.
So far I have found Jordan’s descriptions of cities very evocative and easy to imagine, but his descriptions of landscapes have been less clear to me. I wasn’t really able to picture how the ridges looked in terms of how big or wide they were, or how difficult they would be to go over.
Elyas does say, however, that he is as vexed as Perrin and Egwene are about the delays of going around. “You know how long this is taking, going around every bloody little hill like this? Blood and ashes! I’ll be till summer getting you off my hands.” (pg. 399 in my copy) So it is at least costing them time.
@@@@@ 2 – The difference is that Perrin and Egwene aren’t out for a scenic stroll. They have to balance competing needs – the pure time it takes them to get to safety versus standing out in profile. On a scenic hike, minimizing energy spent may be important, but they’re at risk of discovery at any second, so getting to safety as quickly as possible, which might mean hustling up and down, is a real concern.
My impression of Bornhold Sr. is that, while he’s quite taken in to the whole Children of the Light cause and religion, he really is one of the more reasonable Whitecloaks (if that says much about him), less willing to immediately label anyone that offends as a Dark Friend, or embellish events just to validate his own beliefs . While very clearly a good/bad cop scene, it isn’t an act. These two men are very genuine in this interaction with Perrin and Egwene, for better or worse.
Ooh, this thread is getting theme-oriented to the point where there’s more to say than “Spoilers”!
My counter-argument to Elyas on the morality of mercy-killing Egwene is that Perrin never seriously considers whether or not she would consent to it. I think at this point in his arc he thinks he’s made a hard choice, but he is still unconsciously putting himself in a macho-chivalrous relationship to Egwene because she’s a woman. He’s compassionate, but also denying her autonomy.
I would go further and say that, while you’re right on the mark to be looking at free will as a central theme, phrasing it as “autonomy” is even closer to the mark. I’d go so far as to say that the ethics of autonomy are the #1 central theme of the whole monumental work start to finish.
Happy reading!
@mp1952 (#5) We often ascribe a purity to animals that I think makes them being harmed or killed seem particularly tragic and unfair. And that goes double for a fantasy animal who has been imbued with that by the narration: Hopper’s death is definitely supposed to be a mark of the corruption of the Children, thematically speaking. (And of course to show how much Perrin’s connection to the wolves has grown.)
But also I think that it’s a bit easier to fathom the death of an an animal than a human; the fact that it doesn’t strike quite so close to home actually makes it easier to process, and then to feel it properly. At least that’s how it’s always seemed to me.
@mutantalbinocrocodile (#9) Ooh, these are excellent points. The question of whether or not Egwene would have consented to it is glossed over by Elyas’s “I know which one I’d choose.” Because death by ravens is so horrible it is just sort of assumed that of course anyone would have chosen a mercy killing at Perrin’s hands, but that assumption doesn’t make it true.
Nice recap, as always. I particularly like the callback to Raen in analyzing Perrin’s character.
I’m surprised by your point that the wolves smelled high levels of wrongness in the Whitecloaks. That’s a bad sign and may make one think whether something is off with them beyond just being extreme in their beliefs. Good question to keep in mind as our heroes interact with them going forward.
@9 I disagree that it’s Perrin “unconsciously putting himself in a macho-chivalrous relationship to Egwene because she’s a woman.” Perrin has more information that Egwene thanks to the bond he has to Elyas and the wolves, and Perrin debates on whether it would be kinder to tell her the truth or to let her be hopeful until the end. Yes, he does remove her autonomy (and does so consciously), but does so out of a kindness for his friend. At no point does he say or think she could not handle the truth, but rather does not wish her to suffer the truth (and make no mistake the truth will cause much needless suffering).
While it’s worth paying attention to, phrasing it like you did attempts to turn this situation into a black and white one when it is clearly many colored.
@jamesmb (#8) Interesting. I would probably agree that he seems more reasonable, but that is such a low bar to clear given the behavior we’ve seen from the other Whitecloaks that it doesn’t mean much more than it keeps Perrin and Egwene alive for a little longer. I also found that his “I give you every chance, and you dig yourself deeper with every word” bit completely disingenuous. I really did feel like he’d made up his mind about them as much as Byar had, but that he is more dedicated to some kind of due process, and that he has an interest in (for lack of a better word coming to mind) “conversion” of the wicked. So far my impression is more that he is subtler, and that he seems less ruled by his emotions, but I think he’s just as black and white in his thinking.
@13 There’s definitely a lot of different aspects to Perrin’s decision and the fallout that he feels, which I think is where Elyas misses the mark a little in understanding what Perrin is upset about. It’s not just as simple as “would it have been a moral decision?” it’s all these questions about autonomy (as mutantalbinocrocodile put it in comment 9) and responsibility and when you can/have a right to make choices on behalf of others. I think that Perrin has had a taste of what it means to be a leader, and this is probably the first of many such struggles and many such burdens.
I didn’t think of Perrin’s decision as macho/sexist but the fact that the story puts the only woman in the group in the position of being out of the loop does accidentally give that effect to it, I think.
Perrin’s internal struggle made him my favorite character on my first read. I feel the conflict between his wolf instinct to be a predatory hunter versus his human instinct to be a protector are critical points in Jordan’s take on masculinity.
If you died a little here, brace yourself for a bumpy ride. It is a glorious read, and one that I’ve undertaken about a dozen times, but there are some desolate points in the story. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
@AaronH Oh, yes, I am sure that none of this compares to what is to come. Thank you for reading!
After a couple of re-reads I can say that the Whitecloaks present a very real problem. Some are “True Believers”, some feel they are doing the right thing and some are just bullies and thugs. I know that some people won’t grasp the difference between the first two groups, but it does exist.
The first time I read the death of Hopper I cried. Yes, dumb ol’ me. I still get misty eyed. As noted in another post, for me, the death of animals in stories hurts me more than humans most times. I know what I feel, but I don’t have the words to actually express it. But I can tell you this, Hopper will affect Perrin. Not gonna say more.
@7 Andy: The Appalachian Trail journals are written by thru hikers, hardly scenic trail walkers. The AT is over 2,000 miles long, extending from Georgia to Maine. It’s estimated that a thru hiker burns 7,000 calories per day. Massive weight loss is normal.
The equivalent western trails are the Continental Divide Trail and the Pacific Crest Trail. All three are massive undertakings, with over 90% of the people attempting a through hike failing. Hardly scenic strolls. I trust the opinions of people who have completed the trails when discussing long distance hiking.
Great blog, Kelsey. Thanks again!
@16 – Jonny, I totally agree. I’ve always had instincts to protect those around me and those characteristics in Perrin instantly made him my favourite in these opening books. And I think that distinction carried some weight moving through the rest of the series when many grew a little fed up with certain storylines. For me, reading Perrin’s storyline through this portion of the story was always the best. Until Mat gets his turn to further his storyline in The Dragon Reborn! To steal a phrase from Leigh – Squee!
Sometimes, I think, that just because “A” is true, does not mean that “B” is false. And what I mean by that is, that I think you have (as usual) done a very good job of cutting right to the heart of this dynamic with Bornhold and Byar.
I agree with you that this is indeed a staged goodcop/badcop event. Bornhold is clever and wise and knows what tools are effective in his current surroundings. But that doesn’t mean that Byar is in on it. I also agree with #8) JamesMB that this a genuine dynamic between Bornhold and Byar.
Byar strikes me as the kind of TrueBeliever (I see you #19 ;P) for whom anything is justified for the cause, a man totally without integrity, restraint, or scruples because he truly feels Justified(TM)in any action. Whereas Bornhold has very definite ideas and ideals about what the Children are, could be, and should be. He still just as light blinded and preconvinced of the guilt of the world. But for him there are forms and rules of engagement that must be observed to set themselves apart from the scum. Kind of a perverse Noblesse Oblage.
@Tyler (#22) What you’re saying makes a lot of sense to me. I don’t know enough about the Whitecloaks to weigh in about the differences in approach in the large-scale yet, but I agree that Byar is not in on it. Bornhald is thoughtful in his approach, methodical, using all tools to his advantage and not getting ahead of himself. Byar, to me, seems to just want to cut down every threat (and every perceived threat) on sight and be done with it. I’ll be interested to see how these dynamics play when I see more of the Children in action.
@20 fcoulter, they aren’t through hiking. They are running for their lives. Caloric costs have 0 influence on the decision on how to travel at this point. The only considerations are time and visibility. Is the risk of being seen worth the time we save by going over or should we go around. The hikers you are referencing have many days ahead of them. These three don’t unless they can get to safety in time.
Another great read, Kelsey! One note on children in general – I am guessing you are not a parent. I don’t think adults are necessarily condescending to children and I don’t think they assume they are full of bad instincts. They KNOW their children are full of curiosity and lack the problem solving skills and emotional intelligence required to make good decisions. Byar does come off like a literal child here when I think about it.
I am no expert in child development (tax accountant turned stay at home mom) but my experience with an infant and a toddler of my own and with countless children aged 3-12 I’ve babysat or nannied is that children don’t experience the world in the same way adults do. A simplistic example: when I look at the forest behind my house, I see trees. When my toddler son looks at the forest, he sees leaves of countless sizes, shapes, shades of green and brown, 7 squirrels playing and eating, many varieties of birds, trunks of so many shapes and sizes, flowers and buds sprinkled throughout, a distant patch of sunlight, the grass and 15 weeds in the foreground, the fence in the yard, the small nature preserve trail marker, etc. Similarly, when I experience a minor inconvenience, I shrug and move on. When he experiences one, he is DEVASTATED. He cries, alternatively clings to me then pushes me away, curls up on the floor, chews his hand, etc. And according to his day care teachers, he was one of the most mild mannered and least aggressive boys they had ever seen. He is always pushing boundaries and trying to achieve more (climb higher, pet the cat longer, push his wagon rather than ride). These are really good things but that drive to do more and learn everything is dangerous without adult interference. Without me there he would have fallen down stairs, dumped boiling water on himself, eaten ant poison (that one was today!) run in front of cars, and injured his infant sister many times over (stomping on her face or tummy, sitting on her, trying to remove her from her rock and play by grabbing her neck, etc.). He is a good boy but he is almost 2; he is a bundle of strong emotion and boundless curiosity with no understanding of pain and consequences. It is our job as parents to teach our children to handle that emotion and to push boundaries in healthy ways (my husband calls it teaching him to weather the storm).
This understanding is why adults don’t treat children like other adults. Also, Byar’s seething boiling hatred does read to me as being literally childish; it is a storm of rage that he is not able to restrain the way that adults should. Also, adults above other adults in another organized group in this series refer to their “inferiors” as children as well. It rubsme the wrong way for that group but not really here (the group is literally called “children” so each member is a “child”).
My 2 cents on the hill debate:
I’ve pictured these hills as not especially steep or tall, but fairly long/wide. Thus, while it is harder to go up and over, the extra cost for how tall these hills are isn’t significant compared to how far you have to go to get around them. Of course, since I also agree that often the landscape descriptions aren’t especially robust, that may be me picturing things to help the author out.
Trying to go around these hills, for example, would take forever if you are trying to avoid the ridges. Anyway, I guess the point is that I can easily imagine landscapes where speed would drive you to just go over the hill rather than around, but the exposed visibility would make that dangerous.
These two chapters – monumental. My heart-rate always quickens a bit when I get to the ravens bit. Almost nothing more horrifying and Jordan’s writing is just deliciously terrifying. Perrin wasn’t my favourite character on first-read(I think it was Rand?), but he is now – and so I “love” seeing Perrin’s struggles and reactions here. His conversation with Elyas foreshadows one of my all-time favourite WoT moments which will….not take place for another 8 books or so?
As for the Whitecloak encounter – another incident that won’t get resolved for many, many, many books. But I share your loathing(I hope I’m fair in using that word?) of the Whitecloaks and “Child Byar” here just creeps me out. I will confess, when I read this chapter recently though, I did consider this scene from the Whitecloaks’ perspective and I think I would have been pretty unnerved by the attack. Men and wolves attacking in tandem is something that just doesn’t happen. You could argue the WCs had a good case for thinking they were fighting Darkfriends. But any sympathy I had for them goes out the window upon seeing Bornhald & Byar’s routine. Bornhald Sr. is probably one of the most “honourable” WCs we will see, but that sense of honour almost makes him even more scary.
Thanks for your commentary Kelsey – don’t know if I’d said this before, but I really appreciate it!! :) Also, this series convinced me to start my own re-read but I must confess I am now a bit ahead of you(in The Dragon Reborn currently)
Hi Kelsey, just checking in to say how much I’m liking this post: the summaries, discussions, and comments – and then responses to the comments! All of it. I don’t have much to add, but I agree with MAC (#9) that autonomy is a strong candidate for RJ’s central theme for the series – probably even more so than “good vs, evil.”
I AM a little frustrated by the slow pace. I started a re-read about the third week, but then finished the book about two weeks later – I just CANNOT maintain interest at two or even three chapters/week. But I understand that you are THINKING and ANALYZING, then WRITING, whereas I only read. I am grateful for your work
TFW you realize that everything you just wrote is full of spoilers. Just imagine a really eloquent speech about choice and autonomy in Randland right here.
One thing I can save is about RJ’s ability to build tension is that it can become palpable especially with battles, but more than that he can start building towards a major moment and instead of getting hyped you begin to dread what will happen once it starts.
Instead of “Oh man this going to be awesome!” its “Oh god, this about to happen.”
@whitespine (#26) Yes! This is a good visual, and it makes more sense of the use of the term “ridges” vs something more traditional such as “hiills” or “peaks.”
@Sonofthunder (#27) The only thing about that (re the Whitecloaks’ perspective on the attack) is that the wolves didn’t start attacking until after the Whitecloaks saw Wind and brought out fire to hunt the wolves down. They did this because they consider wolves to be servants of the Enemy, and would have been perfectly safe if they had made camp and stayed away from the pack. They decided the wolves, and therefore Elyas, Perrin and Egwene, were Darkfriends first, before anything happened, and thus made their own enemies.
Can I just say, you have all been so much fun to engage with, and I really appreciate all your conversations and compliments. I am so glad everyone is enjoying the read, and I just wanted to take a moment thank you, since you’ve all been thanking me!
The further along the book gets the clearer the theme of duality is coming across. For every good thing, there is a negative aspect and vice versa. It’s starting to seem like absolutely everything in this book shows a balance between good and evil. Some things having more pronounced ratios than others, but it’s there.
The world needs the Dragon Reborn but will be destroyed by him.
Even peaceful, One-Power fearing villages have Darkfriends running around.
Channeling the One Power without training can allow you work wonders, but will eventually kill you without training.
The “Ajahs” of the Aes Sedai have been hinted at – some referred to in apprehensive tones. I wouldn’t be surprised if Aes Sedai philosophical beliefs run the gamut of peave-loving knowledge seeker all the way to Dark One-supporter.
It’s clear the Whitecloaks have evil tendencies, but are convinced they are doing it for the greater good.
Perrin’s power is a great advantage, but will likely isolate him from the group.
This applies to even more basic things, like having a gleeman around can get you a nice hotel room, but it will draw all kinds of attention to you. Having a heron-mark sword may get you respect or weird looks.
It seems the major themes of this series have been on a slow-burn, but it’s definitely becoming clearer the themes Robert Jordan wants to get across.
No one expects (or respects) the Spanish Inquisition!
Kelsey, would you mind telling us which chapters will be covered in the next post?
@34 – How about this musical number – name the source and tune: “The Inquisition, let’s begin, the Inquisition, look out sin…. The Inquisition, what a show, the Inquisition, here we go, we know you’re wishing that we’d go away; but the Inquisition’s here and it’s here to stay….. ”
Wow, I have to admit that reading this makes me almost a bit jealous. What I would give to be able to experience the greatest story I’ve ever read for the first time again! You have no idea how much this story will likely change your life! Enjoy it!
@36 From Mel Brooks The History of the World – “what a day, what a day, for an auto-da-fé!”
@36 One of Mel Brooks more underrated works, History of the World Part I. Have to admit I don’t know the name of the tune though. And I will NOT cheat with google.
I also have to admit I had a much kinder view of Bornhald Sr. when first introduced. I thought of him as someone who was the victim of his indoctrination rather than holding him accountable for his actions.
Going back to the previous theme of WOT as an homage to LOTR, how does this capture compare to the hobbits being captured by the orcs? In both instances, they take the least powerful members and put them in need of rescue. In the LOTR, I was not scared for the hobbits. At this point, I am scared for these two. Thinking determined evil is always scarier big-burly-stupid evil.
@Tyler (#35) Oops I forgot! Next week will be Chapters 31-33.
@36, @38 Auto-da-fé? What’s an auto-da-fé? It’s what you auto-to-do-but-you-do-anyway!
Ah, Mel. Thanks for this. And thanks, RobMRobM. I’ll be singing that all night now.
Just a really tremendous job on this Read, Kelsey. I’m traditionally a lurker but since a reference to History of the World Part I lured me out, I thought I’d send you the well-deserved kudos.
Hmm. My post didn’t post. Ah well. If it turns out I double post, c’est la vie.
Yes, Yea to all for getting my quiz right. Mel Brooks from HoTW I. As far as I know the song is called …The Inquisition.
Kelsey – good choice on the chapters for next week. There’s something odd as you read them – will you pick it up? You might, as you are doing a good job with everything else.
#42 does it have anything to do with // the giving of scarves? // Because that’s all I can think of and I just finished 33 about an hour ago?
@43 -yes it does! :-)
When I read this years ago, Geoffram Bornhald was a shock just because he was the first Whitecloak who didn’t just try to threaten and/or attack anything that displeased him. It’s almost like he’s a throwback to a time when the Children had some bit of principle behind them.
Spoiler:
In fact, I saw Geoffram’s subsequent death as the symbolic end of the last bit of decency in the CoL. After that, it was all Darkfriends, “True Believers,” and bullies.
Like all first-read bloggers, you are a gladiator, and we delight in your first wound. :-p
I wonder if the chapter title “Children of Shadow” alludes to the fact that, as you say, the Children of the Light are “doing the Devil’s work in the name of God.”
This is where I began thinking about how many people (human and occasionally animal) die because the protagonists survive. Those wolves and men would be alive if the ravens had eaten Perrin and Egwene. Unless the wolves and Whitecloaks would still have ended up in close proximity. ///Saving the world obviously makes up for it in the end, but these and the other heroes will kill, or cause the deaths of, sooooo many more people in the future and I’ll keep thinking about it – as some of them do.///
My other thought was: Ugh, go away, Whitecloaks. Nobody likes you.
An hour of hope, even if it is desperate, or an hour of fear? Isn’t that always the question when facing seemingly-certain doom.
I especially like Elyas’s talk about “throwing away the ax” so soon after the Tinker chapters. He strongly disapproves of absolute pacifism, but reiterates that easily and joyfully doing violence is also bad.
I like Elyas’s perpetual grumpiness, reminiscent of Lan’s. It’s similar to the way I talk to myself – constantly scolding and scorning.
“A blind man could read your face.” Oh, shut up. I’m visually impair, not blind, and I could not have read his face if it was more than about 18 inches away from mine.
I wonder if they all could have had so much endurance if they were already weary and undernourished, not fortified by the food and rest of a semi-recent sojourn with the Tinkers. ///Elyas has Warder endurance, but the kids don’t.///
Spoilers:
///Heh, here it’s the ravens that make the fox flee. Somebody noted the symbolism of the interaction in a WoT Redux comment, but it sparked no further discussion.///
///”He even sent armies to the other side of the Aryth Ocean.” Yeah, about that…///
///I may need to reread the redux comments, but I’m unclear on exactly who’s doing what with the ravens here. What Shadow agent is looking at the images in their minds (not actually through their eyes) to find Perrin and Co, and controlling them to attack? The Dark One? Ishamael? The Myrddraal? If the controller is seeing what each raven sees, why would one need to “tell its companions” that it spotted the prey?///
Kelsey. Intrested by what you picked up with regards to the geography of landscape being less well described than perhaps other aspects of the descriptions in the world.
When Robert Jordan was first still pitching the first book to Tor he initially didn’t have a map and when he was told he needed one he threw it together quite quickly which is a reason for why mountain ranges have 90 degree corners on them etc (although there later was written in explanations within the storyline for this)
I think it shows that Robert Jordan focuses on the details of their surroundings a lot more than the macro geography of the world
AeronaGreenjoy @46:
// There’s an exchange in TDR:
It’s possible he’s wrong, but it seems reasonable to me. As we learn (much) later, the Forsaken can take over animals, but it’s fairly time consuming. Plus, at this stage I think only three of them are free, and they’re probably doing other things. So I think the simplest explanation is that the ravens are just generally scouting and killing for pleasure on their own. //
Kelsey, you may wish to consider including chapter 34 in your read next week, as it does go along with chapters 31-33.
@@@@@ 46
//I’ve wondered if ta’veren effects are what caused Elyas to keep the trio with the Tinkers for as long as he did. IIRC he did not explain why they tarried quite as much. But the timing needed to be right for Perrin (and Hopper) to arrive at the stedding at the same time as the Whitecloaks. As unpleasant as that was, just think of how many later events were influenced by that meeting… Hopper dies and Perrin gains a much-needed spirit guide… the Whitecloaks become mortal enemies, leading to unpleasantness at home in TSR… and eventually the resolution is what leads Perrin to grow into his role as a leader.
The Wheel weaves… //
Looking at the map of Randland I find myself remembering the line about maps in Diana Wynne Jones ‘Tough Guide to Fantasyland’ about the ‘tour’ having to visit every named spot on the map. We pretty much do, don’t we?
@50 – I would think you are making this is sort of a chicken and egg thing. The map gets populated with the cities that are integral to the story. Otherwise, why bother to throw a bunch of names on there? Are you suggesting the map is created and cities named before the story that takes us to them is written?
Spoiler for the whole series
@46
// I always thought that Elyas would reunite with Rina (his Aes Sedai). Unfortunately they never did. //
If you want to look back on important events in previous chapters you can check out the summaries of the book chapters on
http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/index.html
Important!!!!
If you want to avoid spoilers do not read the notes below the chapter summaries since they can mentions things from future books.
Be extremely careful when checking the characters since it may reveal things in the top description that isn’t known yet (example they’re a darkfriend or something else that’s not revealed at first).
As long as you just check the read chapters from the book and don’t look at the notes in the bottom of the chapter page you should be safe. But look at it at your own risk.
Just a quick correction, since I have not seen it brought up before:
We, the readers have not seen Bornhald before this moment. The Bornhald in Baerlon is a younger man, and of lesser rank (though still an officer). We are to understand that the Bornhald in Baerlon is the Lord Captain Bornhald’s son. IIRC, the Captain makes an off-hand comment about his son when chiding “Child” Byar. So while the senior Bornhald is not a nice guy he’s not as big a jerk as all that.
@50 @51 //Several named cities are not visited to my recollection. Godan in Tear, Elmora in Tarabon, Jehannah in Ghealdan, Maradon in Saldaea, Shol Arbela in Arafel.//
While some cities are included for plot reasons, I think all the major cities are included.
@54 It was brought up in the comment @3
My favorite quote from History of the World Pt. 1 ” Has anyone seen a pack of Trojans?”
Ok, Elyas and his flight through the hills. If we recall he and the youngsters split with the Tinkers because he had a bad feeling. He had them avoiding the peaks of hills before any Ravens were sighted. Down the road a spell we get more insight as to why he got that feeling, or rather what enabled him to. Although the Tinkers also had the heebie-jeebies so who knows?
I’m pretty sure that Byar tortured small animals and maybe set fires as a youth. Psychopath. This kind of ties in with the “wrongness” the wolves feel. Although it’s never clarified in the text I’ve always thought it was the zealousness of the Children that the wolves sensed. I’ve also always thought that RJ was commenting on the way that organized religion often has extremist groups in the fringes. The Inquisition parallels are obvious, but the dangers of unchecked zeal in any religion are reflected in the Children. An army that answers to no King or country and is driven by extremist religious views. Yikes.
Thanks again for undertaking this project!
When I first read TEotW it was 1990, so as I open this can of worms, in my head Geoffram Bornhald has always been Donald Sutherland, and Dain Kiefer. The father being mature, and pragmatic, the son impetuous. This was reinforced with every chapter containing a Bornhald through the end of the series.
I love your analysis this week. Perrin’s struggles with the Way of the Leaf and violence and protection are something I always find fascinating. I especially like the comparison that you draw between the Whitecloaks’ singleminded obedience and Trollocs and Myrddraal.
I’m the same about real/fantasy violence in books! I was extremely sensitive to scary things in books and movies up to the age of about twelve, and even now some of the more gruesome violence in WoT is a bit much for me. The farther removed the violence is from reality or things that are likely to happen to me, the better. Even in realistic books, things like car accidents I find more unsettling than gun violence, as they’re probably more likely to happen to me.
“It’s clear that Perrin has a protector’s instincts”
YES. This is a large part of why I love him. Perrin is very caring, and always wants to protect people (very mild spoilers) //(admittedly, all the men in WoT usually want to protect women, despite their forceful protestations that they are FINE, they don’t need any MEN protecting them, but Perrin takes this farther)//, and can get upset when he fails at that. I just like Perrin as a person, in addition to him being an awesome and complex character.
I loved Hopper here. Looking at that part again, I’m reminded how, after reading Brandon Sanderson constantly, I enjoy Robert Jordan’s sometimes more poetic prose. I just like the more dramatic and more, well, book-like prose, as opposed to Sanderson’s rather more utilitarian approach.
I don’t find the use of “Child” that weird; I agree that seeing as they’re called the Children of the Light, it’s fairly logical.
I never really thought about themes of free will/control in WoT. That really fits, though. Those concepts are very present throughout the books. And yes, it is going to get a lot more interesting with Tar Valon.
Do any other Sanderson fans find that Byar reminds them of Nalan? I rather like him for that reason, despite him not exactly being the most likable character in this series.
Ooh, I’m so late getting to this…
Is it just me? Or does the concept of ‘Being polite “for Child Byar’s sake”‘ smack of The Way of the Leaf? Not in a good ‘Bornhald gets the concept that violence harms the perpetrator’ way, but in a somewhat perverted manner, more akin to ‘the more he hurts you, the more it inconveniences me.’ I get the sense that expenditure of effort is not high on Bornhald Sr’s priorities: economy of action and all that.
Whilst ‘Child’ is certainly an honorific in that case (as @25 said), I think, in Bornhald’s mind, it probably is double entendre. Throughout this passage, he strikes me less the grandfather, and more the headmaster with an unruly student. As for that other group (and I think we’re probably safe in saying Aes Sedai, given we have already encountered 2 that do this already), they too use it as an honorific. In both cases it strikes me as being born of Arrogance (with a capital ‘A’). // With the Whitecloaks, it is arrogance that they are the true Children of the Light; with the Aes Sedai, however, it is the arrogance that the world would not function without them and that they are taking a maternal role. Many of the Aes Sedai we meet see it as their duty to use their ‘powers’ for good, yet many see it as a blessing and others as a burden. Similarly, different Aes Sedai place different emphasis and weight on the honorific, with variation based on circumstance and subject. When speaking to our protagonists, Moiraine generally comes across as more familiar, where Elaida comes across more demeaning. Just wait till we get to Tar Valon. The scorn and emotion some Aes Sedai manage to put behind the word! //
@39. Are they the least powerful though (and I’m so glad you didn’t say the inverse as they are far from helpless)? I think in many respects, that of the 4 ‘Hobbits’ of the group, they are the most powerful here. // Yes, Rand has the Power, but no conscious thought about it, let alone control at this point. // Basically, Matt and Rand have nothing to bring to this table. Conversely, both Egwene and Perrin have abilities of some use. Egwene knows she has the One Power, even if she has limited control, but she also has Perrin, and Perrin has the wolves, which is far more important. If Matt and Rand were here, they would be completely isolated and cut off, yet Perrin is connected to the outside world, to outside influence, information and, most critically, outside optimism, which he can then pass to Egwene. // Help Comes! //
AeronaGreenjoy, I echo your sentiments on the Whitecloaks and Elyas entirely. Every time the Whitecloaks appear I have the exact same thought. Amazingly, it’s a feeling that never goes away or diminishes with time, or rereading, // or future events… Galad actually makes it worse! // I also love Elyas for those reasons, though, he reminds me more of my father.
I wonder if, actually, Perrin and Egwene do have some boon. They certainly tire quickly, but they are able to keep up with Elyas fairly well despite. Whilst it’s never mentioned (to my knowledge) I think it’s highly likely that Perrin’s connection to the wolves may have other physiological effects than just his eyes (and his description makes him sound resilient to this kind of exertion). I also remember a previous chase scene where the Power assisted the runners: specifically, Bela. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Egwene may have unconsciously aided Perrin (and maybe even Bela?) similarly on this run.
// As for the ravens hounding the fox? I always noticed that too, but was never sure whether it was supposed to be a deliberate reference or not. I do love the symmetry though. At this stage in the story, the DO is hounding our Heroes, but as the story progresses the tables turn and our heroes, specifically Matt, start to hound the DO’s forces. When we first learn that little prophecy about the Prince of Ravens, I definitely thought back to this passage. //
@49. That’s an interesting point, but I’m pretty sure Elyas couldn’t explain it either, so spoiler // ta’veren // influence seems the most likely reason. That said, those with the Power and those connected to it, such as Warders, seem to have at least a stronger instinct for the ebb and flow of the DO’s influence, like a pressure wave surrounding his creatures and the events he sets in motion.
TLDR: Stuff keeps happening! Some of it seems to be deliberate! Some of it never gets explained!
LOVE!!!
Goodness, I lost another post. What’s up with that? Let’s hope this one works.
Anyhow, Berthulf @60 – Nice post but in your response to @49 you reference an Old Tongue word beginning with T that hasn’t been defined or explained yet. Best to white it out to avoid confusion.
@RobMRobM 61, for some reason I am also completely unable to post from my laptop. When I click the captcha, preview and then hit post the page just refreshes and all my work dissappears but never actually shows up on the page as a post. I’ve been having to use my phone. *Shrug* hooray for the trials and tribulations of internet socializing.
@55 – I won’t mention plotlines at all for spoiler reasons, but we do visit Jehannah and we most certainly visit Maradon. But, I see your point.
Great chapters. I’m listening to the audobook right now, and Michael Kramer (the male narrator) does a great job of infusing these chapters with tension. His “grandfatherly” version of Bornhold is the right balance of seeming reason and even compassion with ruthless manipulation. (Of course, from his point view, Egwene and Perrin do keep digging themselves deeper and deeper… I know I’ll get flak for this Perrin did commit two manslaughters, at minimum, because a Whitecloak killed a wolf – something his fellow villagers did without second thought in the Two Rivers. Whitecloaks are still awful, though.)
I remember feeling such a visceral sense of repugnance at Perrin’s misguided impulse to kill Egwene if they were attacked though…speaking of autonomy and free will, this is the height of hubris. Imagine if the ravens had struck just before the border of the stedding and Perrin had struck with his axe, then stumbled over the border – killing her but saving himself? Ouch. He should have at least asked or, unable to secure her consent, rejected the impulse (from a moral point of view, I have no problem with the narrative.)
It’s a good point in favour of the Way of the Leaf, really. Violence always has unintended consequences. It can feed back into the perpetrator, making it easier and easier to consider violence as the reasonable solution the next time…and the next time… While the Way of Leaf won’t “save” you from Trollocs, it may save your soul – especially in The Wheel of Time, where they will be reborn again, floating on the wind.
@57 Regarding the children of light and the wrongness another alternative is:
//
Child Byar is a Darkfriend. Ok the implication is that he is under Compulsion from Graendal when she states she has a Whitecloak working for her but what if it’s a willing choice.
//
@64 In regards to the legality of Perrin’s actions, it’s hard to debate using our legal codes in a fantasy world. In our world, guy killing people hunting wild animals after seeing his pet killed is guilty of manslaughter or Murder 2 (I think). As wolves are undeniably sentient in this world, the Whitecloaks hunting of them and Perrin’s subsequent defense of them gains a whole new light. However, even granting them sentience, Hopper took a tense situation and escalated it into deadly violence. But did the Whitecloaks have the right to detain them? What’s the law on attacking with deadly force someone just trying to detain you or your friend?
If I’m out in the park, and some militia or extremist environmentalist group (to cover both ends of the spectrum) take exception to my presence and try a “citizen’s arrest” for just being there or opposing their views, does that give me or my friend the right to defend ourselves with deadly force? I lean toward yes if they’re armed and I feel threatened. But that seems really murky legal waters.
Kelsey, this is the coolest idea, and as a multi-decade WoT fan, I’m really enjoying reading your posts and especially your fresh look at the story as it unfolds for you. I’d been contemplating a re-read of the series, but I’m actually enjoying reading your posts as they come out much more! Can’t wait til next week!
I had a few questions – they may have already been answered and I missed it – if so sorry!
Are you going to be doing the whole series? Or just Eye of the World?
Is there a way to subscribe this so that it’ll notify me each time new one is posted?
Thanks so much,
Jackson from Colorado
RobMRobM + Tyler:
I’m finding I can only ever post if it’s extremely short: a couple dozen words at most. I’ve taken to writing out a post, cutting out all but a first short sentence then copying the rest back in under Edit, which works fine. Most of my posts are TLDR’s though.
PS. Whiteout done.
Berthulf – your posts are good. Glad you are able to contribute. – Rob
Regarding Perrin and Egwene, while I understand the impulse, the fact that he keeps the information from her AND makes the decision on her behalf is not cool. It may very well be that she would have chosen it, but she should at least get to confirm that. Even if he wanted to spare her the feelings of despair, he still could have said ‘if they get us, I’ll kill you myself’. But obviously, it was a tense situation.
Regarding the callback to Raen – I certainly agree with him that violence harms the doer as well (similar to Dumbledore’s beliefs) – but the thing is, I’ve come to decide sometimes it’s actually the right choice to allow that harm to come to yourself if it means saving somebody else. Of course, that can start to itself be taken to its own extreme, so as Elyas’s advice that you should always hate the ax is correct and will be a running theme for Perrin going forward.
@25 – regarding children (I have two) I think Kelsey is speaking of a very specific belief, usually found in Fundamentalist circles, and seen in proponents of things like the Ezzo and Pearl methods of sleep training/child rearing. They truly do teach and believe that children are inherently bad, greedy, selfish, etc, and must be taught who is in charge and how to quash those instincts. Even things like getting your infant to sleep through the night, or to soothe themselves, take on a a moral dimension. Much different that accepting and redirecting your child’s natural curiosity.
I find the ‘Child’ honorific a bit creepy, myself – I think it’s a way to get grown adults to sacrifice their own autonomy, in a way, and go along with the herd.
@70. Yes, those styles of child-rearing are what I took Kelsey to be referring to, implicitly, though I don’t know how much knowledge of fundamentalist culture she has. Excellent thing to bring to the discussion. The full-blown versions are not, to my knowledge, particularly common in America, but milder versions that still strongly emphasize an individual-will interpretation of original sin are much more common among Calvinist-influenced Americans.
All I can say about the whitecloaks is that it’s a brave choice to wear that much white when you’re all a bunch of giant turds. You’ll never get those stains out. Also, those things have got to get dirty when you’re dragging everyone else’s name through the mud, but I guess they don’t even get close to it on their high horses. Must be why they ride them.
Child is the term used for all Children of the Light. Kind of like “All God’s children” or saying Brother this and Brother that in church. Child basically denotes you’re in the order. Technically Bornhald is Child Bornhald, he’s just Child “insert title here” Bornhald.
Also, if you get twisted up by the Children, then there is a character that’s going to really twist you up later. That character will really throw a wrench in this argument. :)
Also, a spoiler after reading the other comments. \\ Some of you have been talking about their stamina on the run from the crows. I’ve see it attributed to Egwene subconsiously doing what Rand did for Bella and Perrin getting stamina fromt the wolf brother bond. Has anyone considered the non-cannon thought that Bella is really the Creator. It could have been her giving them the stamina they needed. It could also be that Elyas has lived in the wilderness for years after training as a warder and that Egwene and Perrin are sharing a ride on Bella. They’re also farm kids and not candy-ass’ like us\\.
I always understood the “Child” part of the Children of the Light to be twofold. One part is the typical Judeo-Christian view of God as a paternal figure, thus the Children are looking up to the Creator as a paternalistic father-figure, and all (non-Darkfriends) are “children” in that sense, and the Children have obviously perverted what was supposed to be a title of humility, into a badge of honor and purity of purpose. Like any good zealot should.
Secondarily, I took it as a ranking. Childe is a medieval term for an untested knight (e.g. Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came). So it’s equivalent to being a novice in the Tower, or any other beginner. It’s not creepy, it just means you are only beginning to penetrate the hierarchy.
@48: ///I had forgotten about that. But it doesn’t seem to match what happens in this chapter — a huge number of ravens pursuing a specific target, killing anything in the target’s vicinity but not striking at random (don’t the wolves say the ravens would have been uninterested in them without their connection to those humans?) rapidly changing course when one bird spots the prey without having to noticeably “report” to anyone except maybe other ravens. They might be acting outside of anyone’s control, but would they have still been unable to enter the stedding if they weren’t possessed/guided by the Shadow in some fashion at the time? I don’t know. Could be Early Installment Weirdness, or I could be missing something. I need to reread those Redux comments.////
@74 /// A thought I just had, what if the Ravens are a very early bubble of evil? ///
@75: A BoE would make some sense, though ‘I’ think this is probably @74’s EIW.
Of course, there’s always the possibility that said raven was just lagging behind because it had accidentally become separated from whatever gestalt was propelling the others… there’s a lot of ravens there, it’s not impossible one just got left behind and was trying to catch its flock without any Evil influence…
No one mentioned that it was marvelous for Egwene to hit that flying raven with her first try, and that as a quick reaction and not taking your time to aim or something. That was like “Colt” in Saber rider and the star sheriffs he he
Hey there! I just wanted to post this to say that I had read these books nearly 15 years ago but only got in to the third book because it was going over my head. I found this some time in 2020 and was reminded about the series. I have been enjoying reading this book again and following your commentary here on this sight. I look forward to following with the rest of the series. Thank you.
I don’t believe Captain Geofram Bornhald was the same man who Rand and Mat butted heads with in Baerlon. The captain mentioned a son named Dain who has poor impulse control – I believe it was him in Baerlon.